This message by John Piper is almost opposite to what I’d been taught… I’ve heard my former pastor denounce “once saved always saved” as a doctrine from hell. Now I understand that the Scriptures teach that once we’re born again, we’re kept saved. Thanks and glory be to God!
David Carlson said,
19/08/2008 at 10:08 pm
I think the concept of “once saved, always saved” is closer to the truth than the idea that a person can be saved, and then not be saved, and then saved again, etc. based on their current walk with Christ (Arminian viewpoint?).
However, the phrase perseverance of the saints is better than either of the others. It puts the emphasis on a lifelong persevering in the faith (not that you won’t have any setbacks), but this is based on God’s faithful holding onto us as we go about persevering through the ups and downs of life.
Carlotta said,
22/08/2008 at 3:27 am
Once saved, always saved because God keeps us saved!
And since God doesn’t change His mind, then we are His forever!
Yeah, I like the way that sounds!
John Piper is still teaching what dangerously sounds like “works.” On one hand he’s saying that we are God’s permanently, but he’s trying to say that a sign of that permanence is perseverance. That’s contradictory to scripture.
A Christian can fail at perseverance but that doesn’t mean he’s not saved. Look at this and tell me what you think Systah and David:
A Christian may lose a precious crown for not persevering, but not “lose” his salvation.
A very interesting video, but one that will have me saying from now on, “Once saved, always saved, because GOD Keeps us saved!”
Alan Higgins said,
23/08/2008 at 9:53 am
Carlotta, I think that John Piper is saying that ‘Perseverance is the Sign of Being Born Again’ and not that ‘Perseverance makes you Born Again
It is the same about works. Good works are not a REQUIREMENT of salvation,but EVIDENCE of it
Anyway this is my take on ‘once saved, always saved’
http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/can-a-true-christian-backslide/
naturalsystah said,
23/08/2008 at 3:18 pm
David – I agree with you with regard to the term “perseverance of the saints”, good point.
Carlotta – one would have to define perseverance. I look at it as the pattern and hallmark of the believer. Proverbs 24:16 says, “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.” A Christian may sin but not wilfully stay there. Yet 1 John 1:6 says “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:”.
Alan – I just read your post and I agree. It’s a sign and fruit of true regeneration rather than something we need to do to be saved.
Carlotta said,
23/08/2008 at 7:04 pm
I agree with you all more than you think, I just believe the problem is in the word “sign.” Perseverance is a “sign” which could only be directed to God’s human creatures since God doesn’t need a sign.
The problem is when we view a professing Christian going through a time when they are not persevering, should we say at that point that they are NOT born again?
In that verse above in Proverbs 24:16 when it says that the wicked fall into mischief, well, so do saints! So we really can’t tell the difference between a saint and a non-believer at the point of their mischievousness. Only God knows the future and a person in a point of mischief He knows the future and knows who will get up again and who won’t.
So for the believer, we can’t correctly judge the “perseverance” of a person until a time has passed. But what if a believer dies before their point of rising up again? Are they saved or not saved?
John Piper says, “when they go out and make final shipwreck of their faith, it becomes plain who they are.” Describing the “fake” Christian.
The question becomes, who are we to determine what is “final?” It’s very dangerous to judge just where a person is at in their spiritual walk when they claim to be a Christian based upon perseverance alone. I believe there are other factors, but perseverance is not that one factor.
I agree that one will be out of fellowship as in John 1:6 while they walk in darkness. But again, that’s not talking about NOT being born-again while walking in darkness.
I would have been more comfortable with the title of this sermon, “Perseverance is a sign of being in fellowship with the Lord.”